complex secondary spanish school situation

[Volker Dirr]

Do you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?

quote from the TODO:
>> we have:
>>
>> 1. category: 3-4 classes
>> 2. category: 5 courses
>> 3. category: 4 religions (always same time, so i didn't enter it)
>> 4. category: several working groups (after noon lesson, so i add them
>> manualy)
>>
>> now have a closer look:
>> 4 classes * 5 courses * 4 religion is already 80 subgroubs.
>> so if i also add working groups (lets say 5, but there are more!)
>> then we have total 400 subgroups.
>>
>> that is stupid, because i have only around 100 students in a year!
>>
>> i think in that case it is wise to enetr data not in groups/categories, add
>> students
>> individual.

Do you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?

For example German "Gesamtschulen" (special kind of secondary school) need:
1. category: "class"
2. category: different math courses
3. category: different native language courses
4. cagegory: different foreign language courses
5. category: different "main" courses
6. category: different relegion courses
7. category: different sport courses.

there is such a school in my hometown.
they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.

so i fear it is a problem and just solveable like i discriped in the TODO file.

[Volker Dirr]

I agree, Volker, but some users might not want this information displayed.

What do you think if i didn't display this in new tables.
How about the idea to just display that acivities into the "normal" table.
And maybe also add a "display simultanious activities" checkbox in the fet settings.

[Liviu Lalescu]

I agree, Volker, but some users might not want this information displayed.

What do you think if i didn't display this in new tables.
How about the idea to just display that acivities into the "normal" table.
And maybe also add a "display simultanious activities" checkbox in the fet settings.

OK, a settings check box is OK.

What do you mean normal and new tables? I don't understand.

[Liviu Lalescu]

Do you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?

quote from the TODO:
>> we have:
>>
>> 1. category: 3-4 classes
>> 2. category: 5 courses
>> 3. category: 4 religions (always same time, so i didn't enter it)
>> 4. category: several working groups (after noon lesson, so i add them
>> manualy)
>>
>> now have a closer look:
>> 4 classes * 5 courses * 4 religion is already 80 subgroubs.
>> so if i also add working groups (lets say 5, but there are more!)
>> then we have total 400 subgroups.
>>
>> that is stupid, because i have only around 100 students in a year!
>>
>> i think in that case it is wise to enetr data not in groups/categories, add
>> students
>> individual.

Do you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?

For example German "Gesamtschulen" (special kind of secondary school) need:
1. category: "class"
2. category: different math courses
3. category: different native language courses
4. cagegory: different foreign language courses
5. category: different "main" courses
6. category: different relegion courses
7. category: different sport courses.

there is such a school in my hometown.
they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.

so i fear it is a problem and just solveable like i discriped in the TODO file.

You are right. I didn't think that there can be 6^7 subgroups. I thought that some will have say 6*6*6 and others 3*3*2*2*2*2*2.

I saw aSc Timetables's options. You can divide a class in any number of categories and divisions (so a 6^7 is possible - theoretically), and I thought we should also allow that.

You are right, the best is individual students approach, but I just told you about a good timetabling program like the above one, which has many categories and divisions.

I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.

[Volker Dirr]

[...] I don't know if I have explained it clear enough, but if not I could send a spreadsheet with an example.

yes, please sent me an example, because i am not 100% sure about your idea.

Like i already wrote i am just thinking about adding the simultanious activities in the "normal" tables.

[Volker Dirr]

What do you mean normal and new tables? I don't understand.

normal table: the current timetable
new table: the table with the simoltanious activities OR the list of same starting time (day+hour) constraints.

or just compare the untis file that is attached by ßingen:
normal table: the upper (first) table
new table: the bottom (second) table

[Volker Dirr]

I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.

ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space

[Liviu Lalescu]

LATER EDIT:  Just to make sure, how many categories do you need? I counted 7, but I am not sure. Include also A and B as categories.

Hi again,

for the example of year 2, I've counted 9 categories. There were some details not explained in my original post (because to overview the problem I thought there weren't necessary). Now I attach a spreadsheet (ods) with the details of year 2, and as an example of the kind of display I suggested.
Some comments to this spreadsheet: the 2D division (diversity) could be managed as another group, in the same way as OPT group. Also, as I said before, maybe in the display some subactivities (like the OPT group ones) could be joined in one timetable to avoid so many ones.

Finally, this number of categories (9) would be needed for the year 2, which is the first I'm considering (because I know it well), but I cannot assure there's no other group with greater needs. I should look at it carefully, but maybe, if the solution is to add categories, would be better to put a greater maximum number to be sure it's enough.

  ßingen.

Dear ßingen,

For the moment, I think we will stick with 3 categories, because there might be problems if I increase this number. I will think about it.

If you want, I could write you a small program to divide into more categories. Just let me know. I hope that you will be able though to work with FET as it is, to have a confirmation that such situations like your's are solvable.

Volker said he is willing to write a new option to write simultaneous activities list, like gp-Untis. This will probably be done in version 5.10.1. I hope to release tomorrow evening version 5.10.0, which has some aesthetic improvements. So 5.10.1 might be released in at least 8 days from now (I don't want to release faster than once at 7 days).

[Volker Dirr]

Volker said he is willing to write a new option to write simultaneous activities list, like gp-Untis. This will probably be done in version 5.10.1. I hope to release tomorrow evening version 5.10.0, which has some aesthetic improvements. So 5.10.1 might be released in at least 8 days from now (I don't want to release faster than once at 7 days).

i currently think i want to add simultanous activities the the "normal" table, so no "new" like in untis. (i think untis doesn't do it that way, because it is not possible to add several activities in a single cell. But FET can.)

My last working day before summer holiday is next Wednesday. So i am not sure if i am ready next week, but i have time to code in my holiday. i want to update my unofficial version before i start conding this, hopefully i will be ready this weekend.

[ßingen]

they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.

You are right, the best is individual students approach, but I just told you about a good timetabling program like the above one, which has many categories and divisions.

I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.

ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space

I hadn't thought about all this, but you're allright. In fact, even without these considerations, I've always thought that creating a lot of subgroups is no a comfortable way of handling the timetable.

[...] I don't know if I have explained it clear enough, but if not I could send a spreadsheet with an example.

yes, please sent me an example, because i am not 100% sure about your idea.

It's in this post:

Sorry, the attachment

The check box option displaying the same day+hour constraints could be a good option, but I think it would be important to be able to join in an activity object the teacher, the room and the group of students (although not necessary the subgroup). If it's impossible now, I suggest it for the future.

If you want, I could write you a small program to divide into more categories. Just let me know. I hope that you will be able though to work with FET as it is, to have a confirmation that such situations like your's are solvable.

No, no, please, don't worry! And thank you very much. I think it's better for everyone that you both focus on improving the software in a large view to obtain the best possible FET. In the worst case, I could use gp-Untis this year (my school has a license paid), and the next year use FET (of course I prefer free software, and with the short time I've been using FET in particular I think it's really a very good software).

  ßingen.

[Volker Dirr]

[...]
It's in this post:
[...]

ah. ok.
so year 2a has five tables. i don't like that.
i will add the information of this five tables in a single one, because i know how to put several activities into a single cell.

[Liviu Lalescu]

ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space

I hadn't thought about all this, but you're allright. In fact, even without these considerations, I've always thought that creating a lot of subgroups is no a comfortable way of handling the timetable.

1. It might not slow down FET. I am not sure.
2. I checked, for sample German - 140 subgroups. The timetables have ~4.5 MB with html level 2. In FET maximal total number of subgroups is 15000. So the user might obtain 450 MB for html level 2 for a single timetable. This is too much :-(

The check box option displaying the same day+hour constraints could be a good option, but I think it would be important to be able to join in an activity object the teacher, the room and the group of students (although not necessary the subgroup). If it's impossible now, I suggest it for the future.

Maybe it is possible to display such information by examining the same starting time constraints. I'll think about it, and so will Volker, who volunteered to make this.

To make exactly what you need is difficult. Maybe in the future FET-6.

In FET, theoretically anything is possible. Just that I didn't know from the start the things I know now. With the algorithm you could schedule any kind of timetable, but the interface is bad.

No, no, please, don't worry! And thank you very much. I think it's better for everyone that you both focus on improving the software in a large view to obtain the best possible FET. In the worst case, I could use gp-Untis this year (my school has a license paid), and the next year use FET (of course I prefer free software, and with the short time I've been using FET in particular I think it's really a very good software).

Thank you for appreciation. I hope you can use FET this year. You may also do a comparison :-) I'll publish it no matter of the result, if the legislation permits publication of such a comparison.

Please keep us informed of your progress and whether you succeed or not.

[silvia]

sorry to chime in and forgive my intrusion.
I just wanted to let you know how I solved this problem of diversity groups and optional subjects in my school. Looks like your school is very similar to mine.

I used the automatic subdivision and did the following:

Year 1r ESO divided into A B C I3 -1 -2
this way I get: 1r ESO A for common subjects, 1r ESO A-1 for hores B, 1r ESO A-2 for the other half of hora B, 1r ESO I3 for diversity in catalan, spanich and maths.

Then I get 3r ESO-1 (some students from A, some from B and some from C) for optional subjetcs, etc

This has worked for me because I get a general timetable to give to 1r ESO A where it says:
first half go to english and second half go to tecno. I3 go to catalan while A is in spanish, B in maths and C in catalan, etc.

I don't know if I made myself clear.

[Liviu Lalescu]

There is no problem, Silvia, you are welcome in this discussion. But you have only 3 categories (A, B, C is a category with 3 divisions, I3 is another category with 3 divisions, -1, -2 is another category with 2 divisions). ßingen has 9 categories, which is very much.

[ßingen]

sorry to chime in and forgive my intrusion.
I just wanted to let you know how I solved this problem of diversity groups and optional subjects in my school. Looks like your school is very similar to mine.

I used the automatic subdivision and did the following:

Year 1r ESO divided into A B C I3 -1 -2
this way I get: 1r ESO A for common subjects, 1r ESO A-1 for hores B, 1r ESO A-2 for the other half of hora B, 1r ESO I3 for diversity in catalan, spanich and maths.

Then I get 3r ESO-1 (some students from A, some from B and some from C) for optional subjetcs, etc

This has worked for me because I get a general timetable to give to 1r ESO A where it says:
first half go to english and second half go to tecno. I3 go to catalan while A is in spanish, B in maths and C in catalan, etc.

I don't know if I made myself clear.

Hi, Silvia,

thank you very much for your help. I think I've understood it more or less. I assume the first category is "A B C". But "I3 -1 -2" are together a category? Or there is one category for I3 and another for "-1 -2"?

Could you send me your .fet archive, please? This way I could see exactly how you did it, and see how is displayed the result. (If you prefer to send it to me by mail, it's beguzkit at xtec)

Thank you very much,

  ßingen.