Hi,
I'm newbie using FET, but first of all I want to congratulate and thank for the effort and the result.
I have to do the timetable of my school for the first time. I want to put an example of a year in our school.
First of all we have two groups, A and B, each one with its own classroom. The second category in importance is a small group of students with especial educative needs called the "diversity" group, with pupils from both groups A and B. I've created both categories: 1) A & B; 2) Normal & Diversity. So I have 4 subgroups: AN, AD, BN & BD. This special group takes apart classes of Maths, Catalan language and Spanish language, so when group A (Normal) is attending, for example, Catalan, group B is attending Spanish and Diversity group Maths. So the same teacher of each subject can have all pupils of this year. With a restriction of same day+hour it works nice in FET. No problem until here. The diversity division does not affect in any other subject than catalan, spanish and maths.
But then, in the same year, we have the following situations:
- Two hours a week all pupils of the year redistribute mixed in four groups to attend 4 different optative subjects.
- In every group (A&B), once a week, the pupils separate into 2 subgroups to attend english language, with different teachers of course. The other two hours of english language don't have this separation.
- The same happens once a week with Computers subject, but in addition, in the B group, a small group does Religion instead of Computers.
- Once a week, in a two hours activity in the lab the group splits again in a similar way, but doing two different subjects. While one half is doing Science, the other one is doing Technology, in different labs, with different teachers.
- Finally, in the B group, there is another small group, called "Wellcome", for students newcoming to spain, that in some subjects get out from the normal class to do a language immersion.
My problem is that if I try to define all these as subgroups, I get a lot of them, and I have to do it manually, because in the year division I can only define 3 categories. Also, I should print a timetable for each subgroup, I would like to have just one timetable for A group and one for B group. In the worst case I could admit two timetables for each group, considering the diversity division.
The other option I have considered after reading the manual and the forums is to define for each group and division with only one subject and several teachers, and then pseudo-activities to book the rooms with a same day+hour restriction. But the problem with this is how is displayed the information, when I print the timetable for each group. For example, which name should I put to these special subjects? It won't be clear in the timetable which teacher and where does which activity.
In my school they have been using a software called "gp-Untis" (not free) until now. I attach an html file (although when output in pdf it looks better) of how is displayed such a situation with this piece of software.
Thanks again,
ßingen.
Quote[...] Religion instead of Computers.[...]
Interesting to hear that.
Quote
My problem is that if I try to define all these as subgroups, I get a lot of them, and I have to do it manually, because in the year division I can only define 3 categories. Also, I should print a timetable for each subgroup, I would like to have just one timetable for A group and one for B group. In the worst case I could admit two timetables for each group, considering the diversity division.
The other option I have considered after reading the manual and the forums is to define for each group and division with only one subject and several teachers, and then pseudo-activities to book the rooms with a same day+hour restriction. But the problem with this is how is displayed the information, when I print the timetable for each group. For example, which name should I put to these special subjects? It won't be clear in the timetable which teacher and where does which activity.
The best visual solution is to add the "students names" as subgroup. That solution will (maybe) also do better (but never more worse) timetables (if you tables are not 100% filled). So you never have to work with "activities have same starting time (day+hour)"-constraints.
Of course that is (to) much work if you do it manualy.
If you use a school administration software (to do the marks, ...) you can maybe export a useful csv file to import the year, groups, subgroups structure. You can also ask me how to do it if your school administration software can export other file formats (i can maybe write an import filter.)
Quote
In my school they have been using a software called "gp-Untis" (not free) until now. I attach an html file (although when output in pdf it looks better) of how is displayed such a situation with this piece of software.
Untis has the same visual problem. the only advantage of untis is, that the simultanius activities are marked in the timetable and a lenegnd try to explain it (Núm. Prof,Mat.,Aula Grup Text Hora). But it still has the problem that students/teachers/... need to check and understand that list.
so if i understood correct, you just want to have a similar list?
so i just have to:
1. print all "activities have same starting time (day+hour)"-constraints.
2. Maybe improvet: behind each table just with the used constraint in that table.
3. maybe improvet: mark that activities in the table.
that shouldn't be difficult to add. (it will take (much) time to code, but will not be difficult to code.)
i will think about that. if liviu agree with that, i will code it next week. (start of summer holiday)
I agree, Volker, but some users might not want this information displayed.
I will think again about a special year specification -> having a matrix of groups*subgroups, with check boxes.
Do you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
How many categories would the most difficult school need? How many divisions for each category?
Hi,
first of all, thanks for the quick replies.
Quoteso if i understood correct, you just want to have a similar list?
so i just have to:
1. print all "activities have same starting time (day+hour)"-constraints.
2. Maybe improvet: behind each table just with the used constraint in that table.
3. maybe improvet: mark that activities in the table.
Well, it could be a good option, but maybe not the best. Liviu and you could think which is the best, reagarding also to the general profit, but I have another suggestion:
For the internal organization of my school, it's convenient to have a general timetable for each group, A and B, and Untis gives it. But as you observed, the footnote legend style it's not probably the best, as it's a little bit difficult to understand. I think in FET a good solution could be to be able to define a group of activities for a group (for example A, or even the whole year A and B), and then subdivide this group of activities in many subactivities, each of them with its own teacher and classroom (I have read the term "subactivity" in the manual, but I can't find a definition of it, nor find it in FET menus). So a group would be attending many activities at a time, which is not possible right now in FET. Maybe if it represents a structural problem FET could define internally subgroups, but being transparent for the user. This activity group should have a user defined name to identify (for example "Optative 1"). And then inside, each subactivity would have the real subject ("French language", "Arts", etc.). In this way the user would avoid to define such a great number of subgoups, and in the teacher's timetable everything would appear right and clear, with no reference to the activity group, just to his own subactivity, and with information of room besides of the group (opposed to the pseudoactivity solution to book the room).
In the group timetable, the common activities would appear as always, and the others would appear with the activity group name. Then parallel timetables with blanks in the common activities and one of the subactivities for the rest could be printed . So we would need as much timetables as the maximum number of subactivities of the largest activity group. Maybe the subactivities could be diplayed in couples to avoid many timetables, as it happens now with group timetables and "same day+hour" activities.
These parallel timetables could be hanged up on the classroom board, and, of course, each pupil should know which of the subactivities has to attend. I think this display should be clearer than the footnote legend style. I don't know if I have explained it clear enough, but if not I could send a spreadsheet with an example.
Also, with this solution, if no activity group are defined all works as before, so we would avoid the problem commented by Liviu of people not needing it.
By the way, I don't know, Liviu, what do you mean wich the matrix of grups and subgroups. Is it explained in any other trhread or anywhere?
Thanks again,
ßingen.
QuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
How many categories would the most difficult school need? How many divisions for each category?
Well, I don't know how many would we need as the maximum, but as you have observed and I commented before, this would end up in a lot of subgroups, and maybe they would be hard to handle. We also would have the problem to display the information clearly in a large group timetable (of the first category, A & B in my case)
I have just posted a message about this problem...
Thanks,
ßingen.
QuoteQuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
How many categories would the most difficult school need? How many divisions for each category?
Well, I don't know how many would we need as the maximum, but as you have observed and I commented before, this would end up in a lot of subgroups, and maybe they would be hard to handle. We also would have the problem to display the information clearly in a large group timetable (of the first category, A & B in my case)
I have just posted a message about this problem...
Thanks,
ßingen.
To print the timetables for each group A and B, juts make them years and print the years timetable :-)
So, you have years: 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A, 3C, ... Divide 1A by categories, then 1B, ...
You might have some problems, I am not sure. Please let me know.
Later edit: by problems, I mean you might need to combine years 1A and 1B's categories.
QuoteHi,
first of all, thanks for the quick replies.
Quoteso if i understood correct, you just want to have a similar list?
so i just have to:
1. print all "activities have same starting time (day+hour)"-constraints.
2. Maybe improvet: behind each table just with the used constraint in that table.
3. maybe improvet: mark that activities in the table.
Well, it could be a good option, but maybe not the best. Liviu and you could think which is the best, reagarding also to the general profit, but I have another suggestion:
For the internal organization of my school, it's convenient to have a general timetable for each group, A and B, and Untis gives it. But as you observed, the footnote legend style it's not probably the best, as it's a little bit difficult to understand. I think in FET a good solution could be to be able to define a group of activities for a group (for example A, or even the whole year A and B), and then subdivide this group of activities in many subactivities, each of them with its own teacher and classroom (I have read the term "subactivity" in the manual, but I can't find a definition of it, nor find it in FET menus). So a group would be attending many activities at a time, which is not possible right now in FET.
It is not possible in the algorithm to have a students set having >= 2 activities at the same time. I don't know if this can be changed, but anyway it would be very difficult.
Quote
By the way, I don't know, Liviu, what do you mean wich the matrix of grups and subgroups. Is it explained in any other trhread or anywhere?
Thanks again,
ßingen.
For a year: suppose you define the subgroups to be all the students. Make groups: English, Math, Religion, Computers, Sports Boys, Sports Girls, etc. Then you have a matrix groups x subgroups, you mark a position if the subgroup belongs to group.
This approach can be done approximately in a similar manner if you observe the import/export of students. But more work to do.
QuoteLater edit: by problems, I mean you might need to combine years 1A and 1B's categories.
Yes indeed, in the diversity group and the optative subjects we mix pupils from both groups A & B...
ßingen.
QuoteQuoteLater edit: by problems, I mean you might need to combine years 1A and 1B's categories.
Yes indeed, in the diversity group and the optative subjects we mix pupils from both groups A & B...
ßingen.
You can of course add more students sets for an activity. So you may be able to overcome this problem. If you need to have all students of year A and year B, add them to an activity. If you need to have students of years A and B who attend Computers, add groups A-Computers and B-Computers to an activity. Can this approach be used or your situation is more complex?
QuoteIt is not possible in the algorithm to have a students set having >= 2 activities at the same time. I don't know if this can be changed, but anyway it would be very difficult.
By students set do you mean subgroups, don't you? Because in a group it's possible to have 2 activities at the same time, isn't it?
And what about implementing the concept of "activity group", associated to a group of students, and that FET internally define a subgroup associated to each subactivity, but in a transparent way to the user?
ßingen.
QuoteQuoteIt is not possible in the algorithm to have a students set having >= 2 activities at the same time. I don't know if this can be changed, but anyway it would be very difficult.
By students set do you mean subgroups, don't you? Because in a group it's possible to have 2 activities at the same time, isn't it?
And what about implementing the concept of "activity group", associated to a group of students, and that FET internally define a subgroup associated to each subactivity, but in a transparent way to the user?
ßingen.
Sorry, you are right, a group can have 2 activities at the same time, in the sense you are referring to.
I'll think about it. I'll add your suggestion in the TODO.
This is in fact what I thought of, too. But it is very difficult to change the present structure now.
About activities and subactivities: they are interchangeable notions in FET. A large activity is split into activities or subactivities. I know it is not nice, but I didn't care from the beginning and now is too late to change.
LATER EDIT: Just to make sure, how many categories do you need? I counted 7, but I am not sure. Include also A and B as categories.
I thought about your problem. The best solution I see now is to allow more categories.
I think that 7 categories should be enough.
I think of these limits:
categ. 1: 12 divisions.
categ. 2: 6 divisions.
categ. 3: 6 divisions.
categ. 4: 4 divisions.
categ. 5: 4 divisions.
categ. 6: 4 divisions.
categ. 7: 4 divisions.
Do you think that these are reasonable limits for most of the schools?
I'll also talk with Volker, see what is his opinion.
I'll begin now coding, just to see if it is not too complicated and is possible. But I am also interested in your opinion.
It is not possible for the moment to implement your suggestions, because many things should be changed. It might be done in the very far future FET-6. This would be the correct way to handle divisions, you are right.
QuoteLATER EDIT: Just to make sure, how many categories do you need? I counted 7, but I am not sure. Include also A and B as categories.
Hi again,
for the example of year 2, I've counted 9 categories. There were some details not explained in my original post (because to overview the problem I thought there weren't necessary). Now I attach a spreadsheet (ods) with the details of year 2, and as an example of the kind of display I suggested.
Some comments to this spreadsheet: the 2D division (diversity) could be managed as another group, in the same way as OPT group. Also, as I said before, maybe in the display some subactivities (like the OPT group ones) could be joined in one timetable to avoid so many ones.
Finally, this number of categories (9) would be needed for the year 2, which is the first I'm considering (because I know it well), but I cannot assure there's no other group with greater needs. I should look at it carefully, but maybe, if the solution is to add categories, would be better to put a greater maximum number to be sure it's enough.
ßingen.
Sorry, the attachment
ßingen.
QuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
quote from the TODO:
>> we have:
>>
>> 1. category: 3-4 classes
>> 2. category: 5 courses
>> 3. category: 4 religions (always same time, so i didn't enter it)
>> 4. category: several working groups (after noon lesson, so i add them
>> manualy)
>>
>> now have a closer look:
>> 4 classes * 5 courses * 4 religion is already 80 subgroubs.
>> so if i also add working groups (lets say 5, but there are more!)
>> then we have total 400 subgroups.
>>
>> that is stupid, because i have only around 100 students in a year!
>>
>> i think in that case it is wise to enetr data not in groups/categories, add
>> students
>> individual.
QuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
For example German "Gesamtschulen" (special kind of secondary school) need:
1. category: "class"
2. category: different math courses
3. category: different native language courses
4. cagegory: different foreign language courses
5. category: different "main" courses
6. category: different relegion courses
7. category: different sport courses.
there is such a school in my hometown.
they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.
so i fear it is a problem and just solveable like i discriped in the TODO file.
QuoteI agree, Volker, but some users might not want this information displayed.
What do you think if i didn't display this in new tables.
How about the idea to just display that acivities into the "normal" table.
And maybe also add a "display simultanious activities" checkbox in the fet settings.
QuoteQuoteI agree, Volker, but some users might not want this information displayed.
What do you think if i didn't display this in new tables.
How about the idea to just display that acivities into the "normal" table.
And maybe also add a "display simultanious activities" checkbox in the fet settings.
OK, a settings check box is OK.
What do you mean normal and new tables? I don't understand.
QuoteQuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
quote from the TODO:
>> we have:
>>
>> 1. category: 3-4 classes
>> 2. category: 5 courses
>> 3. category: 4 religions (always same time, so i didn't enter it)
>> 4. category: several working groups (after noon lesson, so i add them
>> manualy)
>>
>> now have a closer look:
>> 4 classes * 5 courses * 4 religion is already 80 subgroubs.
>> so if i also add working groups (lets say 5, but there are more!)
>> then we have total 400 subgroups.
>>
>> that is stupid, because i have only around 100 students in a year!
>>
>> i think in that case it is wise to enetr data not in groups/categories, add
>> students
>> individual.
QuoteDo you think that allowing 6 categories would be good? Or do you need 7? Or more? Wouldn't that lead to too many subgroups?
For example German "Gesamtschulen" (special kind of secondary school) need:
1. category: "class"
2. category: different math courses
3. category: different native language courses
4. cagegory: different foreign language courses
5. category: different "main" courses
6. category: different relegion courses
7. category: different sport courses.
there is such a school in my hometown.
they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.
so i fear it is a problem and just solveable like i discriped in the TODO file.
You are right. I didn't think that there can be 6^7 subgroups. I thought that some will have say 6*6*6 and others 3*3*2*2*2*2*2.
I saw aSc Timetables's options. You can divide a class in any number of categories and divisions (so a 6^7 is possible - theoretically), and I thought we should also allow that.
You are right, the best is individual students approach, but I just told you about a good timetabling program like the above one, which has many categories and divisions.
I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.
Quote[...] I don't know if I have explained it clear enough, but if not I could send a spreadsheet with an example.
yes, please sent me an example, because i am not 100% sure about your idea.
Like i already wrote i am just thinking about adding the simultanious activities in the "normal" tables.
QuoteWhat do you mean normal and new tables? I don't understand.
normal table: the current timetable
new table: the table with the simoltanious activities OR the list of same starting time (day+hour) constraints.
or just compare the untis file that is attached by ßingen:
normal table: the upper (first) table
new table: the bottom (second) table
Quote
I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.
ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space
QuoteQuoteLATER EDIT: Just to make sure, how many categories do you need? I counted 7, but I am not sure. Include also A and B as categories.
Hi again,
for the example of year 2, I've counted 9 categories. There were some details not explained in my original post (because to overview the problem I thought there weren't necessary). Now I attach a spreadsheet (ods) with the details of year 2, and as an example of the kind of display I suggested.
Some comments to this spreadsheet: the 2D division (diversity) could be managed as another group, in the same way as OPT group. Also, as I said before, maybe in the display some subactivities (like the OPT group ones) could be joined in one timetable to avoid so many ones.
Finally, this number of categories (9) would be needed for the year 2, which is the first I'm considering (because I know it well), but I cannot assure there's no other group with greater needs. I should look at it carefully, but maybe, if the solution is to add categories, would be better to put a greater maximum number to be sure it's enough.
ßingen.
Dear ßingen,
For the moment, I think we will stick with 3 categories, because there might be problems if I increase this number. I will think about it.
If you want, I could write you a small program to divide into more categories. Just let me know. I hope that you will be able though to work with FET as it is, to have a confirmation that such situations like your's are solvable.
Volker said he is willing to write a new option to write simultaneous activities list, like gp-Untis. This will probably be done in version 5.10.1. I hope to release tomorrow evening version 5.10.0, which has some aesthetic improvements. So 5.10.1 might be released in at least 8 days from now (I don't want to release faster than once at 7 days).
Quote
Volker said he is willing to write a new option to write simultaneous activities list, like gp-Untis. This will probably be done in version 5.10.1. I hope to release tomorrow evening version 5.10.0, which has some aesthetic improvements. So 5.10.1 might be released in at least 8 days from now (I don't want to release faster than once at 7 days).
i currently think i want to add simultanous activities the the "normal" table, so no "new" like in untis. (i think untis doesn't do it that way, because it is not possible to add several activities in a single cell. But FET can.)
My last working day before summer holiday is next Wednesday. So i am not sure if i am ready next week, but i have time to code in my holiday. i want to update my unofficial version before i start conding this, hopefully i will be ready this weekend.
Quote
they have around 6 items in each category. so there are 6*6*6*6*6*6*6=279936 subgoups.
But that is stupid, because there are only around 180 students in a year.
Quote
You are right, the best is individual students approach, but I just told you about a good timetabling program like the above one, which has many categories and divisions.
I'll think about it. I also hate that many categories, but we should also listen to requests from users.
Quote
ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space
I hadn't thought about all this, but you're allright. In fact, even without these considerations, I've always thought that creating a lot of subgroups is no a comfortable way of handling the timetable.
QuoteQuote[...] I don't know if I have explained it clear enough, but if not I could send a spreadsheet with an example.
yes, please sent me an example, because i am not 100% sure about your idea.
It's in this post:
QuoteSorry, the attachment
The check box option displaying the same day+hour constraints could be a good option, but I think it would be important to be able to join in an activity object the teacher, the room and the group of students (although not necessary the subgroup). If it's impossible now, I suggest it for the future.
Quote
If you want, I could write you a small program to divide into more categories. Just let me know. I hope that you will be able though to work with FET as it is, to have a confirmation that such situations like your's are solvable.
No, no, please, don't worry! And thank you very much. I think it's better for everyone that you both focus on improving the software in a large view to obtain the best possible FET. In the worst case, I could use gp-Untis this year (my school has a license paid), and the next year use FET (of course I prefer free software, and with the short time I've been using FET in particular I think it's really a very good software).
ßingen.
Quote[...]
It's in this post:
[...]
ah. ok.
so year 2a has five tables. i don't like that.
i will add the information of this five tables in a single one, because i know how to put several activities into a single cell.
Quote
Quote
ok. but a user should be warned if the numer of subgroups is too high, because:
1. it is not the best (need much main memory; so it maybe slowdown FET)
2. it is critical, because subgroup html tables will need MUCH disk space
I hadn't thought about all this, but you're allright. In fact, even without these considerations, I've always thought that creating a lot of subgroups is no a comfortable way of handling the timetable.
1. It might not slow down FET. I am not sure.
2. I checked, for sample German - 140 subgroups. The timetables have ~4.5 MB with html level 2. In FET maximal total number of subgroups is 15000. So the user might obtain 450 MB for html level 2 for a single timetable. This is too much :-(
Quote
The check box option displaying the same day+hour constraints could be a good option, but I think it would be important to be able to join in an activity object the teacher, the room and the group of students (although not necessary the subgroup). If it's impossible now, I suggest it for the future.
Maybe it is possible to display such information by examining the same starting time constraints. I'll think about it, and so will Volker, who volunteered to make this.
To make exactly what you need is difficult. Maybe in the future FET-6.
In FET, theoretically anything is possible. Just that I didn't know from the start the things I know now. With the algorithm you could schedule any kind of timetable, but the interface is bad.
Quote
No, no, please, don't worry! And thank you very much. I think it's better for everyone that you both focus on improving the software in a large view to obtain the best possible FET. In the worst case, I could use gp-Untis this year (my school has a license paid), and the next year use FET (of course I prefer free software, and with the short time I've been using FET in particular I think it's really a very good software).
Thank you for appreciation. I hope you can use FET this year. You may also do a comparison :-) I'll publish it no matter of the result, if the legislation permits publication of such a comparison.
Please keep us informed of your progress and whether you succeed or not.
sorry to chime in and forgive my intrusion.
I just wanted to let you know how I solved this problem of diversity groups and optional subjects in my school. Looks like your school is very similar to mine.
I used the automatic subdivision and did the following:
Year 1r ESO divided into A B C I3 -1 -2
this way I get: 1r ESO A for common subjects, 1r ESO A-1 for hores B, 1r ESO A-2 for the other half of hora B, 1r ESO I3 for diversity in catalan, spanich and maths.
Then I get 3r ESO-1 (some students from A, some from B and some from C) for optional subjetcs, etc
This has worked for me because I get a general timetable to give to 1r ESO A where it says:
first half go to english and second half go to tecno. I3 go to catalan while A is in spanish, B in maths and C in catalan, etc.
I don't know if I made myself clear.
There is no problem, Silvia, you are welcome in this discussion. But you have only 3 categories (A, B, C is a category with 3 divisions, I3 is another category with 3 divisions, -1, -2 is another category with 2 divisions). ßingen has 9 categories, which is very much.
Quotesorry to chime in and forgive my intrusion.
I just wanted to let you know how I solved this problem of diversity groups and optional subjects in my school. Looks like your school is very similar to mine.
I used the automatic subdivision and did the following:
Year 1r ESO divided into A B C I3 -1 -2
this way I get: 1r ESO A for common subjects, 1r ESO A-1 for hores B, 1r ESO A-2 for the other half of hora B, 1r ESO I3 for diversity in catalan, spanich and maths.
Then I get 3r ESO-1 (some students from A, some from B and some from C) for optional subjetcs, etc
This has worked for me because I get a general timetable to give to 1r ESO A where it says:
first half go to english and second half go to tecno. I3 go to catalan while A is in spanish, B in maths and C in catalan, etc.
I don't know if I made myself clear.
Hi, Silvia,
thank you very much for your help. I think I've understood it more or less. I assume the first category is "A B C". But "I3 -1 -2" are together a category? Or there is one category for I3 and another for "-1 -2"?
Could you send me your .fet archive, please? This way I could see exactly how you did it, and see how is displayed the result. (If you prefer to send it to me by mail, it's beguzkit at xtec)
Thank you very much,
ßingen.
hi again. I think Bingen can do nicely with the same categories I use, because I suspect he is working with a very similar type of school as I do. I'll contact you by mail and we can check if you can do it with 3 categories. If you do, we'll post the results here so everybody can use the help.
I3 is a subgroup of 1rst ESO, the same as 1A, 1B, 1C, etc
I use 1A-1+1A-2+1B-1+1B2+1C-1+1C2 for catalan, spanish and maths, and then I3 (=instrumental 3) for the diversity group of 1st ESO.
Does it sound more clear now?
Quotehi again. I think Bingen can do nicely with the same categories I use, because I suspect he is working with a very similar type of school as I do. I'll contact you by mail and we can check if you can do it with 3 categories. If you do, we'll post the results here so everybody can use the help.
I3 is a subgroup of 1rst ESO, the same as 1A, 1B, 1C, etc
I use 1A-1+1A-2+1B-1+1B2+1C-1+1C2 for catalan, spanish and maths, and then I3 (=instrumental 3) for the diversity group of 1st ESO.
Does it sound more clear now?
I think so. Then you are actually using 2 categories only, aren't you? One for "A, B, C, I3" and another for "-1, -2". Is it ok? But then I suppose that in the timetable of, for example, 1ESOA the I3 activities don't appear. It's not a bad option, as you can print a part the I3 timetable, but I was trying to define the diversity group as subgroup of both A and B (we don't have C).
Another difficulty I have is that besides of "hores B" we have more types of divisions, like optative activities, that can be up to 4 subgroups. I suppose I could adapt your method just increasing this category until 4, and using for each activity the number needed, and supposing that pupils in group 1 are always the same, which would not be true, but I think it would work.
Thanks,
ßingen.
Maybe it's too late or I've been too long testing with FET, but I think I've messed up myself.
In my last test I have used just one category: for A and B groups. Then I have defined manually the needed subgroups. As I have not defined them as categories, I've avoided the problem of the large amount of subgroups when crossing all possibilities. Some of these subgroups are simultaneously subgroups of A and B.
But now I have two problems:
- In the timetable of group A activities of group B are printed.
- When I try to generate timetables, FET complains of subgroup D having 31 activities and only 30 timeslots, but I've only defined 9 activities (3 subjects of 3 hours each one) for group D. I've created a false timesolt at the end (called "patch") to be able to generate the timetable, but of course I have to delete it.
It seems FET is restricting simultaneity at subgroup level, and that is counting all activities of groups A and B as of the whole subgroup D (which is a mix of pupils of A and B). So it's actually not assigning any activity to the group A and group B at the same time. If this is the case, I don't understand why. D is subgroup of A and B, but of course they don't have to be all together all the time.
I attach the .fet file and the html timetable (see year 2 ESO), in case it's useful for you to help me.
Thank you very much,
ßingen.
Hi Bingen,
the good thing about FET is that yes, the activities for I3 will be shown in a timetable for 1A. It's very late now but tomorrow I'll try to come back with the exact subdivisions I used. We also have hores B, optatives, diversitat, alternativa a la reli, etc.
You have 12 activities for 2 ESO A, 10 activities for 2 ESO B and 9 activities for 2 ESO D. So 2 ESO 2 has 31 activities in total - which is wrong. Does 2 ESO D need to belong to 2 ESO A and to 2 ESO B?
OK, now I have the time to detail my subcategories.
I used 2 automatic subcategories.
Year 1
Subcategory1: A / B / C / I3
Subcategory2: -1 / -2 / -3 /-4 /-5
Now, I get 1A, 1B and 1C for common subjects like history or common classes of English.
Then I have 1A-1 and 1A-2 doing spanish, 1B-1 and 1B-2 doing Catalan, and 1C-1 and 1C-2 doing math. These 3 classes are at the same time, and also at the same time we have 1I3 (which includes the I3 from the 3 1rs ESO) doing diversity of maths.
All these activities will be 3 hours. Then the same but with A doing catalan, B doing math and C doing spanish, and I3 doing diversity of spanish.
For hores B I do:
1A-1 doing english.
1A-2 doing English
1A-1 doing tecno
1A-2 doing Tecno.
1A-1 english and 1A-2 tecno must have the same starting time, and min 1 day between this activity and the 2 hours of english with the complete group
1A-2 english and 1A-1 tecno same starting time, etc
For optional subjects I do:
5 activities at the same time.
1-1 (everybody from 1r ESO that does this subject, and includes people from A, B and C) in French
1-2 doing PE
1-3 doing biology
1-4 doing history
1-5 doing english
you will get timetables for every subgroup, but these activities will also be included in the general timetable of 1A. You will get something like this:
1A
Monday
8.30: 1A-1 english / 1A-2 Tecno
9:30: 1A history
10:30: 1A-1 French / 1A-2 PE / 1A-3 biology / 1A-4 History / 1A-5 English
12:00: 1A spanish / I3 maths
13:00 1A Tutoria
etc
is this more clear?
Quote
You have 12 activities for 2 ESO A, 10 activities for 2 ESO B and 9 activities for 2 ESO D. So 2 ESO 2 has 31 activities in total - which is wrong. Does 2 ESO D need to belong to 2 ESO A and to 2 ESO B?
Certainly I needed a break. For a moment I thought that first of all FET would consider 2ESOA and 2ESOB completely separated groups (with no intersection), as this is the actual case in my school, and then it would understand that by 2ESOD belongs to 2ESOA and to 2ESOB I meant 2ESOD belongs to the union of 2ESOA and 2ESOB. My everyday routine at the school lead me to think so, but of course it has no sense for FET. I want to apologize for wasting your time which such an error.
Plus, I have to recognize that I'm the maths teacher, so I hope none of my students is reading this thread. ;-)
QuoteOK, now I have the time to detail my subcategories.
I used 2 automatic subcategories.
Year 1
Subcategory1: A / B / C / I3
Subcategory2: -1 / -2 / -3 /-4 /-5
Now, I get 1A, 1B and 1C for common subjects like history or common classes of English.
(...)
is this more clear?
Yes, I think so. Now I'm out, but I will try it as soon as I can. I think this configuration will be enough for me. And of course I will post the results.
Thank you very much for your help to all of you!
ßingen.
Quote
Certainly I needed a break. For a moment I thought that first of all FET would consider 2ESOA and 2ESOB completely separated groups (with no intersection), as this is the actual case in my school, and then it would understand that by 2ESOD belongs to 2ESOA and to 2ESOB I meant 2ESOD belongs to the union of 2ESOA and 2ESOB. My everyday routine at the school lead me to think so, but of course it has no sense for FET. I want to apologize for wasting your time which such an error.
Plus, I have to recognize that I'm the maths teacher, so I hope none of my students is reading this thread. ;-)
No problem! FET is not well documented and mistakes are usual.
Quotei currently think i want to add simultanous activities the the "normal" table, so no "new" like in untis.
hmmm... it is more difficult then i expected.
It's a problem if the activities don't have the same duration.
So i must code several exceptions to care about that and so i can't use a span in that cases (different duration).
let me think some more. In distress i will just code a list of simultanious activities as untis does.
Hi again,
finally I've been able to place almost everything: 6 years with almost all the needed divisions. The few ones left are because I need some data from my school, which I will receive soon I think. But it seems it won't be a problem. Following Silvia's method everything works right.
Now I must optimize it a little bit to attend teacher's wishes.
And finally there's the display problem left. The gp-untis way of footnote legend is not good, but I don't like neither the way it's displayed in FET when there are 3 or 4 simultaneous activities in a group, because the column of this day becomes too wide. I'm going to have a look the CSS section in order to see if I can improve it a little bit, but it seems there's no easy solution...
Thanks again,
ßingen.
hey, I have exactely the same problem. I haven't looked at the css file yet, but I suggest that the first one to solve the problem, tell the other one. What do you say? Trato? :D
You can:
- hide some elements (maybe hide the activity tags)
- use shortcuts for teacher-, rooms, students- and subjectnames.
- decrease the font size (by css or if i remember correct it was very easy with webbrowser "opera", because it is possible to change fontsize in the printer settings)
-use boardercollapse to element table
ok, I will try all this. The main problem is the columns that are in the HTML file. when 5 subgroups appear in a timetable, these simultaneous activities are displayed in 5 columns. That makes the timetable veeeery wide. :)
you can also try to reduce only the fontsize of that activities (that activities are in "td.detailed" element.
or if you don't need that information at all, then take a "less detailed" timetable and just tell the sudents one time what they have during ???.
So every students can write his single activity into that cell.
So just go to the css file and search the td.detailed element and add the last line about font size. Example:
td.detailed {
border: 1px dashed silver;
border-bottom: 0;
border-top: 0;
font-size: 5px;
}
Please read this to get more information:
http://www.timetabling.de/manual/FET-manual.en.html#id_45
Quote
Quote
In my school they have been using a software called "gp-Untis" (not free) until now. I attach an html file (although when output in pdf it looks better) of how is displayed such a situation with this piece of software.
Untis has the same visual problem. the only advantage of untis is, that the simultanius activities are marked in the timetable and a lenegnd try to explain it (Núm. Prof,Mat.,Aula Grup Text Hora). But it still has the problem that students/teachers/... need to check and understand that list.
so if i understood correct, you just want to have a similar list?
so i just have to:
1. print all "activities have same starting time (day+hour)"-constraints.
2. Maybe improvet: behind each table just with the used constraint in that table.
3. maybe improvet: mark that activities in the table.
Done. ("only" improvement 3, because 1 and 2 look awful.)
You can enable it with "FET->Settings->Print activities with same starting time in timetable". (Of course you need the latest snapshot or the upcoming FET version.)