us high school

[mrpaul]

In our school the students select courses they want to take, there are a handful of required coursed they take, but each student has the option of selecting various elective courses. there is usually not a group that has exactly the same daily schedule.

how can I set this up in FET? does each student become their own group so that I can generate a timetable based on the student's course selection, teacher and room and time constraints?

[Liviu Lalescu]

I think it is best to consider a real student = a FET subgroup. Then you can define groups and years as you wish, to help you with activities which have more students. If you want, you can define a real student = a FET group, or even a FET year, please think how it is best for you (try some samples).

For instance, if you have real students: S1, S2, S3, S4, S5 in Year1. You know that you use often the group GE (containing students S1, S3 and S4) for English. Define in FET: Year1: contains groups GE and GAll. GE contains subgroups S1, S3 and S4, GAll contains subgroups S1, S2, S3, S4, S5. Then add activities for GE and/or separately for S1, S2, S3, S4 and/or S5.

Maybe it is easier to use the facility of importing from CSV text. Volker can help you here, so let's wait for his answer. The best I think is for you to try make some export/import samples.

Please let us know if you succeed or further questions.

[Volker Dirr]

Hallo

Please also read this:
http://lalescu.ro/liviu/fet/forum/index.php?topic=95.0

Ask more detailed if you need more information.

[mrpaul]

I think that makes a lot of sense, I was trying with groups, but subgroups = individuals makes more sense thanks.

how to do I require that an activity runs in the same time slot each day?

is there an easy way to move a group to a new year when working on next years schedule?

[Liviu Lalescu]

I think that makes a lot of sense, I was trying with groups, but subgroups = individuals makes more sense thanks.

This is just a notation, you can choose any way you want :-)

how to do I require that an activity runs in the same time slot each day?

You have a specific constraint activities same starting hour.

is there an easy way to move a group to a new year when working on next years schedule?

No, unfortunately. Maybe you can work with a text editor on the .fet data file, or using import/export CSV.

[mrpaul]

i'm trying to slowly add activities...things are looking really good. I am thinking I will use this for the upcoming scheduling task for our school.

I have another question: is there an easy way to set an activity to always be in the same time slot. I've been adding and activity  and then going to activity constraints and splitting into 5 per weeks (so it occurs each day) then going to activities constraints and selecting 5 corresponding activities and adding same start time constraint.

Seems like there must be an easier way. Like a check box on the activities page. All our classes should have the same start time.

Is there a better way to set an activities to run 5 time per week and alway at the same time?

[Volker Dirr]

Case 1:
If it is always the same time slot, why do you schedule 5 days?
just schedule 1 day and tell the students they have every day the same table. So decrease the number of days to 1 and maybe call it "daily" (instead of "monday").

Case 2:
Maybe you have some activities with less then 5 hours per week and there are only some activities with 5 hours per week? so only the 5 hours activities should always start at the same time?
I fear you have to do it like you already done it. there is no easier way.
Can you please tell me why you need that constraint to so many activities? why is it not allowed to be in different timeslots?

[mrpaul]

we have 1 credit and 1/2 credit classes.

We have 4 quarters, per year. Some 1/2 credit classes run only 2 quarters and some run every other day for all 4 quarters.

There are 6 - 40 minutes periods and 2 - 50 minute periods each day.

If the class runs all year then those 1/2 credit classes that fall in the 50 minute periods run 2 days per week all year.  The 1/2 credit classes run 2 days/week in one quarter and 3 days/week the next quarter.

so each 1/2 credit class gets the same number of minutes per year
.

for example a math class will always meet 4th period each day, but an art class might 3 period might meet tues and thursday and 3rd period mon, weds and fri might be phyical education for a student

[Volker Dirr]

interesting model.

you should think about adding an activity tag to each activity.
maybe call it "40" and "50".
then add constraints activity tag preferd times to both activity tags.
(so the activities are in the correct timeslot (40 minutes or 50 minutes timeslot)



but i am still not sure why some activities need same starting time. Is there a pedagogic reason for that or have you done that in the past just because it is "easier" for a human to do a timetable manually with that rule.

[mrpaul]

pedagogically: we are creatures of habit and if you can have the same subject at the same time; learning, retention and recall is easier (part of maintaining an environment).

historically: that is the way we have done it for the past 40 years.

easier: we have a few part time teachers that come to teach a few classes and have other jobs and schedule that they need to maintain i.e. we have an accounting teacher that works for an accounting software developer...he only wants to be in during periods 2-4. or our Spanish teacher wants to be there only periods 3-5

it has not occurred to me that it would be done otherwise. Do European schools follow a model different than having the same class at the same time? each day? Why would you not want to have math or language class tat the same period each day? What would the benefit be of having math on mon 3rd hours, tues 5 hour, weds during 1st hour... ?

[Liviu Lalescu]

There is no easier way to set the same hour, because it is not an usual constraint (because nobody asked until now).

[Volker Dirr]

[...]Do European schools follow a model different than having the same class at the same time? each day? Why would you not want to have math or language class tat the same period each day? What would the benefit be of having math on mon 3rd hours, tues 5 hour, weds during 1st hour... ?

I don't know about all European school, but all schools i know do it different. Just have a look the german seconday school sample file.

There are 2 reasons why we don't like-to/can have always the same starting time: concentration and activities with duration 2.



About concentration:
Our pupils can't concentrate in the 5. and 6. period as good as in the first ones. So i hate it if a always must teach the same group in the last period. That students are not as good as pupils i am teaching in the first periods.
So we like to teach a group a few times earlier and sometimes later. If the teacher is perfect (of course it is not always possible), then the  teacher try to explain new things in early periods, but he will never do that in late periods; he will just train skills from previous (early) periods in late periods.



About activities with duration 2:

For example our students have 2 periods art, industrial art and/or textile design. The teacher don't like to have 2 single periods at two days, because preparing that lessons (build up all needed items) take much time and on the other hand it is pretty easy to students to concentrate in this subjects 2 hours and also in the last periods. So the teacher want to have duration 2 on a single day and are not "angry" if it is in the last periods.

For example subject sport is about 3 hours per week. Also here: Walking to the gym, dress and undress and warm up need much time. So single hours per day a not very good, because there is no time to do the "real" sport. So sport teacher prefer to have once 2 hours at a day and once 1 day at an other day.

Problem of not available teachers: We need to share some teachers with other schools. So that teachers are only 2 or 3 days at our school, but they must teacher 4 or 5 hours in a group. So of course sometimes they must have activities with duration 2. So always the same starting time is impossible.

Also a few teacher like to have once an activity with duration 2. (So if they totally teach 5 hours per day, they just teach one time 2 hours and on 3 other days just 1 hour.)
Some like it because it also have sometimes advantages. You can work on a special task a little bit longer once a week. Students or teacher don't need to change the room and don't "waste" to much time for that. Also in year 9 and 10 is a small advantage, because the students need 2 hours time for the tests. So the school leader don't need to care about cover planning if a teacher need 2 hours to write the tests.

[...]we have a few part time teachers that come to teach a few classes and have other jobs and schedule that they need to maintain i.e. we have an accounting teacher that works for an accounting software developer...he only wants to be in during periods 2-4. or our Spanish teacher wants to be there only periods 3-5

We also have teachers like that and it is no problem to do that without the "always same starting time rule". (Of course "no" problem if you do it with FET. it is very complicated if you do it manualy.)

[mrpaul]

you know that makes a lot of sense, I hate having certain classes right after lunch or at the end of the day.

I think that to try and change that in our school this year will be tough, but maybe in a year of two I could make my argument and win support for a rotating style of schedule.

I am planning on using FET to do this years timetabling, I will let you know how it turns out and if I feel successful using FET.

thanks alot for the forum and FAST answers to questions

Paul

[Volker Dirr]

Yes, it is always difficult satisfy all teachers.

I think it will be the best to do your timetable with your rules now.

After you have such a timetable just delete the "always same starting time" constraints and care about a good mix of the periods with constraint a set of subactivities has preferd starting time (compare german sample file).
Then maybe also add some features you currently don't have.
So maybe try to reduce the number of gaps or working days. Most teacher like that "feature" and you will have one argument more. Then you can do a small meeting and compare the current running timetable with the "new" variant.

I am not sure if you use home rooms for students or teachers. Most german schools use home rooms for students (so a class is always in the same room). We changed it this year to home rooms for teachers and i can just say it is good. Of course the floor is a little bit more full because of all the students, but on the other hand there are many advantages:
- less demolition in the rooms (happen if no teacher is in the room because he change the room)
- less bullying between the students, because they don't have time anymore for that, because they must change room.
- the cardiovascular system is pushed, because the pupil don't sit and sleep, they must change the room
- better atmosphere, because the room is prepared for the correct subject (correct books, items, maps, poster, ...)
- if a little bit money left, then the students don't need to carry the books, because they can keep them at home and in the teachers room are enough needed books (so the school need a little bit more money for that, but maybe you saved this money, because there are not missing or damaged items anymore that must be payed).
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