subgroups at the same time

[llantones]

Hello:
My school has 9 years splits in several groups, 1º A, 1º B, 2º A, ...
I made one year in FET to all the scholl and made groups 1º A, 1º B...
The problem comes with Religion. Some pupils of each group go to Religion or to Alternative. I made subgroups: 1º A rel, 1º A Alt,...but when I generate the timetable, FET don't put this activities at same time. I had read this in the manual:
The students have different religions in the same classes. So they have religion in courses.
If there is only one subject, then it the easiest (and if pupils have no unused period in their table it is the only possible solution) to scheduled all at the same time. There are several possibilities to do it (compare Add an activity and constraint A set of activities has same starting time (day+hour)). In most cases you just add the subject religion. It's clear if the religion is christian, jewish, muslim or philosophy, because you can see this by the teachers name.

but I don't understand. What I do wrong?

Thanks

[Volker Dirr]

Of course if there are many free time slots, then fet must not schedule them at the same time.

if you want/need that you can do it by different things:
a) use constraint same starting time (day+hour)

or

b) reduce the number of free slots per week. if there is only one free slot left, then the activities will be of course at the same time

or

...

but you are sure they must be at the same time? why? teachers might get much better tables if they are not at the same time.

[llantones]

or

...

but you are sure they must be at the same time? why? teachers might get much better tables if they are not at the same time.

because there are 30 children, 15 go to Religion and 15 go to Alternative.

Or 15 go to French and 15 go to Maths Reinforcement.

Thanks

[Volker Dirr]

[...]
but you are sure they must be at the same time? why? teachers might get much better tables if they are not at the same time.

because there are 30 children, 15 go to Religion and 15 go to Alternative.

Or 15 go to French and 15 go to Maths Reinforcement.

Thanks

Please think twice. i ask again: why?

example:
students have 28 hours per week. so they have 5-6 hours per day.
why not Religion on Monday 6th period. so Alternative students have only 5 hours and can go home.
why not Alternative on Tuesday 6th period. So Religion students have only 5 hours and can go home.
You might get better teacher tables by that!

only if students have a "full table" i accept your answer. so if they have for example 30 hours per week, then of course you want to give them every day exacly 6 hours per day. in that case they must be at the same time.
if you have a "full students table" (so there is no free timeslot), then you don't need to care about your request by a constraint. FET will autoimaticly schedule the activities at the same time, because then there is no other possibility.

but if students have 28, 27, 26, 31, 32, or 33 hours per week i don't accept your answer. please rethink about your dataset if you want to get the best timetable.

[llantones]

Hello:

only if students have a "full table" i accept your answer.

Students have a full table. Also I think,  must I to have contraints between Religion/Altenative and French/Maths Reinforcement?

Thanks

[Volker Dirr]

Students have a full table.

ok. if students have full table, then you don't need to set such a constraint. (but in that case it might reduce the needed time to generate a timetable if you add such a constraint.)

Also I think,  must I to have contraints between Religion/Altenative and French/Maths Reinforcement?

No. you don't need to do it because of that reason. if you set the groups correct (or if you used "divide year automaticly"), then fet will care itself about that problem.

[llantones]

Hello:

(or if you used "divide year automaticly"), then fet will care itself about that problem.

Please, help me, because I have not clear.

I must divide year 1º automaticly in the groups A and B. And then I divide in the subgroups Religion, Alternative, French and Math Reinforcement, but how tell to FET that Religion and Alternative are a couple?
Thanks.

[Liviu Lalescu]

Hello:

(or if you used "divide year automaticly"), then fet will care itself about that problem.

Please, help me, because I have not clear.

I must divide year 1º automaticly in the groups A and B. And then I divide in the subgroups Religion, Alternative, French and Math Reinforcement, but how tell to FET that Religion and Alternative are a couple?
Thanks.

Year 1. Divide by 3 categories. Categ. 1: 2 divisions: A, B. Categ. 2: 2 divisions, Religion, Alternative. Categ. 3: 2 divisions: French, Math.

[llantones]

Hello:

Year 1. Divide by 3 categories. Categ. 1: 2 divisions: A, B. Categ. 2: 2 divisions, Religion, Alternative. Categ. 3: 2 divisions: French, Math.

Now it's clear.

Two questions more: only three categories?

If I divide the group manually I can make only one category?

Thanks

[Liviu Lalescu]

Hello:

Year 1. Divide by 3 categories. Categ. 1: 2 divisions: A, B. Categ. 2: 2 divisions, Religion, Alternative. Categ. 3: 2 divisions: French, Math.

Now it's clear.

Two questions more: only three categories?

FET officially has only 3 categories (restricted by me, restriction suggested by Volker and maybe others). This is because if you add too many categories, the data will become too large/slow to solve. Users are advised to use other tricks to manage more categories:

1) Years 1A and 1B. Divide each one by 3 categories. This way, you have 4 real categories.

2) If categ. C contains language: English/French/German, then instead of a category with 3 divisions, consider all subjects in a single one. All subjects will be simultaneous for students.

Of course, you can create a file with more categories, but you need to modify FET or generate the .fet file with another program, or add groups/subgroups manually.

If I divide the group manually I can make only one category?

Thanks

Yes, usually.

If you add groups and subgroups exactly like when dividing automatically, you can get the same result as dividing automatically. But it is complicated manually, a lot of subgroups to add.

[llantones]

Hello:

Year 1. Divide by 3 categories. Categ. 1: 2 divisions: A, B. Categ. 2: 2 divisions, Religion, Alternative. Categ. 3: 2 divisions: French, Math.

On more question: In a full timetable, Categ 2 and 3 are simultaneous, but Categ 1?
Thanks

[Liviu Lalescu]

Hello:

Year 1. Divide by 3 categories. Categ. 1: 2 divisions: A, B. Categ. 2: 2 divisions, Religion, Alternative. Categ. 3: 2 divisions: French, Math.

On more question: In a full timetable, Categ 2 and 3 are simultaneous, but Categ 1?
Thanks

Nothing is forced simultaneous. Only if you add constraints same starting time or consider all the subjects in a single activity, without divisions.

They may be simultaneous based on other facts.

[llantones]

Hello

Volkerr said me:

ok. if students have full table, then you don't need to set such a constraint. (but in that case it might reduce the needed time to generate a timetable if you add such a constraint.)

llantones wrote on Yesterday at 07:22:32:
Also I think,  must I to have contraints between Religion/Altenative and French/Maths Reinforcement?

No. you don't need to do it because of that reason. if you set the groups correct (or if you used "divide year automaticly"), then fet will care itself about that problem.

then now I am confused.

Can I add constraints to group instead of activities? For example:
1 A Religion must be always simultaneous with 1 A Alternative. Because constraint to activities is a lot of hard job.
I can't find this option in the program.

Thanks

[Liviu Lalescu]

Hello

Volkerr said me:

ok. if students have full table, then you don't need to set such a constraint. (but in that case it might reduce the needed time to generate a timetable if you add such a constraint.)

llantones wrote on Yesterday at 07:22:32:
Also I think,  must I to have contraints between Religion/Altenative and French/Maths Reinforcement?

No. you don't need to do it because of that reason. if you set the groups correct (or if you used "divide year automaticly"), then fet will care itself about that problem.

then now I am confused.

Can I add constraints to group instead of activities. For example:
1 A Religion must be always simultaneous with 1 A Alternative. Because constraint to activities is a lot of hard job.
I can't find this option in the program.

Thanks

Constraints same starting time are only for activities.

Let us wait for Volker to clarify his post.

[Volker Dirr]

If the students timetable is full, then of course activities of an category (but different division) are at the same time. That is of course not foced by the alorithm, but there is no other possibility. So the algorithn is only able to find such a solution.