Simultaneous activities

[Sue Moran]

In year 7 I have
Category 1 7A/7B
Cat 2 French/German/Chinese
Cat 3 Standard/ Higher maths
Cat 4 Art/ICT/Drama

I want French German and Chinese timetabled at the same time. Standard and higher Maths at the same times and  Art/ICT/Drama at the same times.

I know how to use the time constraints to make each subject in the category be timetabled at the same time. Is there a better way?

[Bobby Wise]

I would eliminate Cat 1 and Cat 3.

Make year 7 into Year 7A and Year 7B.

Make Cat 1 French/German/Chinese.
Mat Cat 2 Art/ICT/Drama.

That should work without any constraints.

[Bobby Wise]

Sorry that should read: Make Cat 2 Art/ICT/Drama

[Liviu Lalescu]

Bobby, dividing year 7 into two years 7A and 7B is no longer needed/recommended. Now there is possible to divide a year into more categories, and it is the same thing to divide 7 by 4 categories or 7A and 7B by 3 categories.

Indeed, combining Maths into a single course is more efficient and recommended. But maybe Sue Moran needs explicit division.

Sue Moran, you need to add constraints activities same starting time, otherwise FET gives unwanted freedom to the timetable.

[Volker Dirr]

Please rethink if simultaneous is realy needed. Most people think it is needed even that is not true.

I bet you just didn't add all activities yet, you just forgot to set a max gaps = 0 constraint to students, you just want it because "it was always like that" or because you think it must be like that (even that is not true.)

if you add all activities to the students and there are no possible free slots left, then it will be automaticly simultaneously, because there is no other solution. so in fact you don't need to add such a constraint (but adding it might improve speed.)

if you added all activities, the max gaps = 0 constraint and there are possible free slots left, then please rethink: why do you needed them simultaneously. you need a good answer. not only "because it must be" or "it was always like that." you need to now a real answer!

why? because you will get much better timetables. why is it bad if maybe Art students have got Tuesday last hour art, while Drama students have got free and can go home. Thursday the opposit: Art students have got the free, while Drama students have got the last hour. That is no problem for students. Why is that better? Because it might be possible that by this both teachers can have for example a free day, which is maybe impossible if they must teach at the same day. Or the number of gaps per teacher can be reduced by that, or ...

So you should need to know a realy good argument why you need simultaneously! You will (maybe) get much better timetables without! Good arguments are for example: The students change many times during the year from Art to Drama or the school bus can come at  one time per day and not 2 times, ...

[Sue Moran]

I still think I need simultaneous activities, the students in this year group have no free's. They have a choice of picking an option of Art, Drama  or ICT for two years. It's the same for French/German and Chinese.

I will try combing the Maths into a single course. I am just beginning to learn all this and am trying things out on a small timetable in the hope of being able to do it for real next September. I haven't add all activities yet, and don't know anything about  "set a max gaps = 0 constraint to students" so I have more reading to do.

Thanks very much to everyone for the help, I will read it all again carefully.

[Sue Moran]

So if I make Maths a single course then split it into two groups do I still need to use time contraints to get the start times the same?

[Liviu Lalescu]

So if I make Maths a single course then split it into two groups do I still need to use time contraints to get the start times the same?

I am not sure of your settings, but if there are more activities and you want them simultaneous, you need to add same starting time constraints. Only if for example students sets 7A and 7B have a single activity Maths, you don't need (and you cannot) add same starting time constraints.

[Sue Moran]

I have been using the time contraints and that is going well.

When a year group do maths it is in a particular grouping for maths only so the whole year group does maths at the same time. I was hoping to set this up without having to use time contraints for every lesson and every year group.

I have year 8 Maths that is split into two categories Higher and Standard, when I generate a timetable the lessons happen at different times for the two groups.

So am I doing something wrong or do I need to use time contraints for every lesson?

[Volker Dirr]

I still think I need simultaneous activities, the students in this year group have no free's. They have a choice of picking an option of Art, Drama  or ICT for two years. It's the same for French/German and Chinese.

I still fear you are wrong, like my old headmaster. If the students have a choice and they are not allowed to have free's, then it doesn't mean that those activities must be simultaneously.
It only mean you need to divide the year automatically and you only need to add a max gaps = 0 constraint. maybe also an early constraint if students must begin at the first hour (for example if the bus doesn't arrive at the second hour.)
You will see that simultaneously is not needed! If you have no free slots left, then the activities will be automatically simoultaniously, you don't need to add a constraint for that. If you add a constraint for that you won't get the best teachers timetable if the are other free slots. (don't worry! Students won't have gaps, because you only need to add a max gaps = 0 constraint!)

[Liviu Lalescu]

I have been using the time contraints and that is going well.

When a year group do maths it is in a particular grouping for maths only so the whole year group does maths at the same time. I was hoping to set this up without having to use time contraints for every lesson and every year group.

I have year 8 Maths that is split into two categories Higher and Standard, when I generate a timetable the lessons happen at different times for the two groups.

So am I doing something wrong or do I need to use time contraints for every lesson?

I am not sure what you are doing. Maybe you could attach your file. If there is a single activity, it will be simultaneous. If not, you may need to add constraints same starting time.

[Sue Moran]

Ok, I see what you mean. I am no where near to filling the timetable yet but will try the gap=0 later. Thanks

Ok I will attach my file, it will no doubt be amusing. Thanks for the help, most kind.

[Volker Dirr]

You didn't wrote about math "problem" in your initial post.
If you need all math lessons simultaneously in the whole year and if you don't have room problems, then it is the fasted to simply add the whole year (not the groups; or if you want simply all groups) and all effected maths teachers into an single activity. so also in this situation is no simultaneously constraint needed.

[Sue Moran]

ok, rooms are an issue, so time contraints it is, thanks.

[Liviu Lalescu]

I think it is OK, just you should remove Maths years and leave a single year 7, 8, 9, etc. And use same starting time constraints.